kolkhozi: prussia of Axis Powers Hetalia, with his eyes covered by a hand coming from offscreen (presumably Russia's) (b frowns on your shenanigans [DN])
([personal profile] kolkhozi Apr. 11th, 2009 04:27 am)

A friend and I were talking about P4's True End on AIM and came to... interesting conclusions, and I figured I'd share and see what you guys had to say maybe? IDK

to the kolkhoz (4:21:15 AM): I found it odd how :/ Souji seemed to be even then
to the kolkhoz (4:21:21 AM): I mean I know he has to be silent but
to the kolkhoz (4:21:30 AM): I think he... is kinda hollow?
Madarahime (4:21:52 AM): I think that's the quality that made him be able to do what he did lol
Madarahime (4:22:02 AM): But yeah, I had the same feeling
Madarahime (4:22:28 AM): Not even a tear shed when these people all just... you know...
to the kolkhoz (4:22:31 AM): *nod*
to the kolkhoz (4:22:50 AM): I'm with the manga - he moves around so often that he DOESN'T LET himself attach
to the kolkhoz (4:23:10 AM): ...hoshi what if HE was emptiness in the trio Izanami went on about
Madarahime (4:23:21 AM): I wondered a bit
Madarahime (4:23:23 AM): if he was
to the kolkhoz (4:23:33 AM): but Adachi isn't hope so much as
to the kolkhoz (4:23:38 AM): constant annoyance
Madarahime (4:24:01 AM): What was the other one?
to the kolkhoz (4:24:25 AM): Despair
to the kolkhoz (4:24:41 AM): ...fuck think about it
Madarahime (4:24:43 AM): Yeah
Madarahime (4:24:45 AM): Exactly
Madarahime (4:24:46 AM): lol
to the kolkhoz (4:24:49 AM): what's his name Kira hoped to save people and keep them safe
Madarahime (4:25:02 AM): Exactly.
to the kolkhoz (4:25:04 AM): and Souji is :|
to the kolkhoz (4:25:13 AM): so hope lost? shit lol
Madarahime (4:25:17 AM): lol
to the kolkhoz (4:26:01 AM): GOOD JORB

I'm not sure exactly how to make it work (maybe Souji's s-linked based victory shows that humanity is able to forge fake bonds no matter how hollow they are, idk), but... somehow the trio always kind of bugged me, because Adachi's not empty. Hell, he's constantly angry that he can't be, if anything.

Thoughts, guys? idk this is just rambling it is 4:30 AM and I should not be posting.

From: [identity profile] dots.livejournal.com

I don't think Adachi is emptiness, either, though I still stick with Souji = hope. I kind of lean Adachi as despair, actually, because he goes on that huge tirade about how the world fucks over your hopes and dreams and it's pointless to be an optimist when you're an adult because the world is unforgiving and cruel. I think Namatame's efforts work for emptiness, too, though, because everything he did was in an attempt to fill the void that his losses left behind. He lost Mayumi and his job and his prestige and his wife, and he had to find something to fill the huge gap it left behind, so he started his SAVIOR!!! routine.

I think Adachi as despair fits with THE WORLD WILL NEVER BE BETTER too, because that's what despair is, it's a resignation to things being always the way they are without any hope for improvement.

I think Souji's victory and the fact that it's brought about by S. Links wherein people change for the better proves he's hope. Even if he's not hope personally, he was a force of hope for those people, giving them a reason to move forward and become better people and say goodbye to who they were before. Obviously it doesn't apply to like ... the fox, lol, but Yosuke is the one I'm thinking of here, how he talks about "everything inside him changed" after Souji came along, and Izanami mentions that people were drawn to the "spark" she instilled in Souji, which could have been that light at the end of the tunnel feeling. The party and other people say a lot that Souji feels like he's something special, and yeah, that's why I hold out for Souji as hope :D

REGARDLESS, BACK TO TOPIC: Yeah I don't buy Adachi as emptiness either and while I can see why people would argue it I think despair was probably the intended choice for him.
Edited Date: 2009-04-11 11:50 am (UTC)

From: [identity profile] madelineusher.livejournal.com

I think Adachi works damn better as despair than emptiness, that can be agreed on! I hadn't thought of as Namatame as filling in the gaps in his life before, but yeah, that works too.

Yeah, Adachi's just... so goddamn pissed and bleak and filled with anger/despair at how much everything kind of sucks and will always suck.

So even though Souji's empty and blank he motivates others? Yeah, I can see that working, even if it sill seems weird to have this unresponsive, strange kid as hope. He certainly is a catalyst for hope and change, even if he himself seems untouched by it.


From: [identity profile] dots.livejournal.com

Yeah I don't know if it's so much Souji himself being FULL OF HOPE as him having the ability to inspire hope in other people. His S. Links are by and large people who are absolutely miserable with themselves that he helps to overcome their difficulties and become better people. Ai is a great example of this, too, if you've ever finished her link, and from as far as I've gotten it, Naoki, too. And even the Devil and Tower links. I still have never gotten very far on Temperance because Eri is kind of an idiot but yeah, you get the point. Souji may not be FULL OF HOPE ... but he kind of is, actually. He doesn't say much, really, but he has a constant drive to do the right thing, to uncover the right answer, and faith that even if it's difficult, he will find that answer. It's brought up pretty early in game, iirc -- I forget whether it comes up in the Velvet Room or the club first, but Shadow Teddie asks you and Igor does as well, if you think you can find the truth even though it's masked in fog, and Souji's answer is pretty much "well, duh."

I think it's fair to say, in addition, that Adachi was a "force for despair" in the same way Souji was a force for hope. It's hard to say Namatame was a "force for emptiness" since a lot of his hollowness is very personal, but I think you could apply it to the bad ending where he's not killed but Adachi isn't caught. There are answers but not enough of them, and you leave town feeling just ... unsatisfied.

From: [identity profile] madelineusher.livejournal.com

I feel like Souji might have a lot of hope for the world/the town/whatever, but what seems to lack for me and what keeps throwing me off is his sort of lack of hope for himself. "I'll have to move on after a year, can't let myself get too close" - that sort of thing. It might just be my imagination, but... But I guess even without that sort of personal hope his drive for good and his ability to inspire others still push him far enough. Izanami was just grabbing random kids at gas stations, man, she couldn't get picky.

Very true. That bad end is just... flat - Nanako's in stasis, all your friends are not quite sad and not quite happy... It does give a rather blank/empty feel.

From: [identity profile] dots.livejournal.com

I think the message is also that Souji eventually overcame that urge to distance himself, in the true ending where Teddie is talking about everyone being connected no matter the distance. Souji looks at that photo with a lot of fondness. I think he's still probably somewhat of a distanced person because that's just how he is, but I think he overcomes his own fear of making connections, because he knows better than to think distance can break them, anymore.

God, that was cheesy, but so is the true ending...

From: [identity profile] madelineusher.livejournal.com

D'awww, I hadn't really thought about that so much. It IS cheesy, but it makes sense. So in the normal ending he probably just is like OKAY DONE *FORGETS EVERYONE*, but True he probably does stay close to all of them and visit and he makes new friends wherever the hell he goes and yay.

From: [identity profile] aircrash.livejournal.com


brb stealing my brother's ps2

From: [identity profile] pana.livejournal.com

Ah, this just came up while talking to Igor, regarding the Fool:

"It is like the number zero... empty, yet holding infinite potential within itself."

Reply: "Empty..?"

"The Persona ability is the power to control one's own heart... and the heart is strengthened through bonds. As you form bonds by becoming involved with others, your own Social Links will gradually develop. The power of these Social Links is what will determine your Persona's abilities."

It looks like Igor confirms that you're empty, and it's those around you who give you that power to change the world. I didn't think anything of it during the first play, haha.

From: [identity profile] madelineusher.livejournal.com

Ooh, I hadn't thought about that! I'm pretty sure you get a similar speech in P3, but it doesn't change the interesting aspects of it. All that catalyzes Souji, all that motivates him, is external - social links and the like. He's so completely shaped by those around him, and part of that is gameplay, but really...